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	<title>Comments on: The Love of Minds</title>
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	<link>http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/</link>
	<description>Five veteran gamers, plus special guests, share their insights, rants, and raves about all things gaming, especially board games and RPGs.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 01:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Hamlet Tori</title>
		<link>http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-13960</link>
		<dc:creator>Hamlet Tori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 23:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-13960</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I try to explain but you just dont understan. Hamlet Tori.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I try to explain but you just dont understan. Hamlet Tori.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Hunter Rose</title>
		<link>http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2587</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2587</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I'm forwarding this one to friends :)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I think the argument of competitive thinking can still be made, even for collectible games where you get points for execution.  My entire CCG 'career' has been made on taking deck archetypes that should not work and making them playable (my Death Star Deck for Decipher's Star Wars game blew up over dozen planets in a tournament during the latter days of the game's life).  The satisfaction came not only from making the improbably likely but also from the recognition I earned for being one of the more creative deck builders in the area, even if I didn't often take the top honors in competition.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Not always having the skill (or money) to compete with high rollers, I chose to be competitive on a different level of play.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m forwarding this one to friends :)</p>

<p>I think the argument of competitive thinking can still be made, even for collectible games where you get points for execution.  My entire CCG &#8216;career&#8217; has been made on taking deck archetypes that should not work and making them playable (my Death Star Deck for Decipher&#8217;s Star Wars game blew up over dozen planets in a tournament during the latter days of the game&#8217;s life).  The satisfaction came not only from making the improbably likely but also from the recognition I earned for being one of the more creative deck builders in the area, even if I didn&#8217;t often take the top honors in competition.</p>

<p>Not always having the skill (or money) to compete with high rollers, I chose to be competitive on a different level of play.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Yehuda Berlinger</title>
		<link>http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2584</link>
		<dc:creator>Yehuda Berlinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2584</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;FWIW, all of my Magic games with David are with drafting, a game unto itself.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Yehuda&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, all of my Magic games with David are with drafting, a game unto itself.</p>

<p>Yehuda</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Smite</title>
		<link>http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2582</link>
		<dc:creator>Smite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2582</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Replies to Yehuda's comments:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I do see your point, but you cite some difficult examples. I'm not very familiar with Go, but isn't it like Chess inasmuch as it's a fixed start position and with no randomness, just what the other player does? This sort of game does very much promote a sense of self-think, yes. But in how you say it, you acknowledge an impicit handicap system when you play well vs. vastly superior opponent. If you lose in such a case you've still "won" because you've beaten the secret handicap. This is just saying that the absolute victory condition isn't the one you're using to determine who was the best thinker; you've replaced it with a relative system because you know you have unequal talents at work here. Presumably with enough "good" plays, your implicit handicap becomes smaller, in other words, you're expected to have that "better" game more often against your superior opponent. Because you're thinking better.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In any case, the more conventional board game setting (or is it?) is when the players are more equally talented, and there's some randoming forces to keep everything lively. Under those circumstances, we're more likely to go with the absolute winner in the game as a measure of who played best, even as we humor the stories for exceptional circumstances (e.g., "it's amazing that I managed even 3rd place given the starting hand I was dealt!" I think a lot of Euro games fairly can be described as, you "read" the board conditions, come up with a "plan" for how you're going to try and win, and then see how your plan fares versus your opponents.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Regarding Magic, as a collectible/constructable game, much of the "game" is played long before you sit down to deal the cards. Most of my Magic playing is highly NON-competetive and is really about seeing how often a well-crafted deck operates correctly. In this case we've turned a "game" into something more like an "art" or "craft", and so victory or success is judged via vastly different criteria. Of course, I would be thrown to the wolves in a serious Magic tournament. And when it's put in a highly competetive venue like that, I think that the "best thinker" concept still carries a lot of weight.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If games model reality, one of the key elements they model is that it takes both skill and luck to do well. Once we accept that, the question becomes: just what kind of skill are we talking about?&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Replies to Yehuda&#8217;s comments:</p>

<p>I do see your point, but you cite some difficult examples. I&#8217;m not very familiar with Go, but isn&#8217;t it like Chess inasmuch as it&#8217;s a fixed start position and with no randomness, just what the other player does? This sort of game does very much promote a sense of self-think, yes. But in how you say it, you acknowledge an impicit handicap system when you play well vs. vastly superior opponent. If you lose in such a case you&#8217;ve still &#8220;won&#8221; because you&#8217;ve beaten the secret handicap. This is just saying that the absolute victory condition isn&#8217;t the one you&#8217;re using to determine who was the best thinker; you&#8217;ve replaced it with a relative system because you know you have unequal talents at work here. Presumably with enough &#8220;good&#8221; plays, your implicit handicap becomes smaller, in other words, you&#8217;re expected to have that &#8220;better&#8221; game more often against your superior opponent. Because you&#8217;re thinking better.</p>

<p>In any case, the more conventional board game setting (or is it?) is when the players are more equally talented, and there&#8217;s some randoming forces to keep everything lively. Under those circumstances, we&#8217;re more likely to go with the absolute winner in the game as a measure of who played best, even as we humor the stories for exceptional circumstances (e.g., &#8220;it&#8217;s amazing that I managed even 3rd place given the starting hand I was dealt!&#8221; I think a lot of Euro games fairly can be described as, you &#8220;read&#8221; the board conditions, come up with a &#8220;plan&#8221; for how you&#8217;re going to try and win, and then see how your plan fares versus your opponents.</p>

<p>Regarding Magic, as a collectible/constructable game, much of the &#8220;game&#8221; is played long before you sit down to deal the cards. Most of my Magic playing is highly NON-competetive and is really about seeing how often a well-crafted deck operates correctly. In this case we&#8217;ve turned a &#8220;game&#8221; into something more like an &#8220;art&#8221; or &#8220;craft&#8221;, and so victory or success is judged via vastly different criteria. Of course, I would be thrown to the wolves in a serious Magic tournament. And when it&#8217;s put in a highly competetive venue like that, I think that the &#8220;best thinker&#8221; concept still carries a lot of weight.</p>

<p>If games model reality, one of the key elements they model is that it takes both skill and luck to do well. Once we accept that, the question becomes: just what kind of skill are we talking about?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Yehuda Berlinger</title>
		<link>http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2581</link>
		<dc:creator>Yehuda Berlinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2581</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;the premise at the heart of it all is that this is a contest to see who can be the best thinker ... ultimately we’re going to acknowledge the winner as the person who, for this moment at least, devised the best plan for victory and executed it&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Ah, but this is so NOT true.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If I play a game of Go with someone ten better than me and I do well, while he plays routinely, I may lose the game but "win". That's the whole point. I play against myself.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I play Magic with my friend David all the time. Not once do either of us "acknowledge at the end" who devised the "best" plan. The only thing we acknowledge is who did well with what they had. If we both play well, we both won. If we both play poorly or overly reliant on luck, we both lost. And that's regardless of the victory conditions of the game.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I have never ended the game with even the barest of thought as to which of us was the best thinker. Not a smidgen, not a whit, not even a glimmer ... well, maybe a ... no, not even a glimmer.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Yehuda&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>the premise at the heart of it all is that this is a contest to see who can be the best thinker &#8230; ultimately we’re going to acknowledge the winner as the person who, for this moment at least, devised the best plan for victory and executed it</i></p>

<p>Ah, but this is so NOT true.</p>

<p>If I play a game of Go with someone ten better than me and I do well, while he plays routinely, I may lose the game but &#8220;win&#8221;. That&#8217;s the whole point. I play against myself.</p>

<p>I play Magic with my friend David all the time. Not once do either of us &#8220;acknowledge at the end&#8221; who devised the &#8220;best&#8221; plan. The only thing we acknowledge is who did well with what they had. If we both play well, we both won. If we both play poorly or overly reliant on luck, we both lost. And that&#8217;s regardless of the victory conditions of the game.</p>

<p>I have never ended the game with even the barest of thought as to which of us was the best thinker. Not a smidgen, not a whit, not even a glimmer &#8230; well, maybe a &#8230; no, not even a glimmer.</p>

<p>Yehuda</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Best of Board Games :: d21 Gaming: The Love of Minds :: January :: 2007</title>
		<link>http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2579</link>
		<dc:creator>Best of Board Games :: d21 Gaming: The Love of Minds :: January :: 2007</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 11:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2579</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;[...] The Love of Minds is a nice Yehudesque article on why we play games. Good thoughts. [...]&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Love of Minds is a nice Yehudesque article on why we play games. Good thoughts. [...]</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: MetalJim</title>
		<link>http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2575</link>
		<dc:creator>MetalJim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 05:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2575</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Nice article - I get it and agree.  Chess, of course, offers an exercise in competitive thinking, but it only really uses certain analytical and predictive parts of the brain.  Many of the Eurogames are taxing different parts of the brain, more of a "situational risk analysis" sort of thing.  Some of the Eurogames challenge you to do different kinds of lateral thinking.  Bluffing games are something else again.  Sure, there's a social aspect to these games, and an escapist angle as well, but I think that "competitive thinking" is a good way to focus the discussion.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article - I get it and agree.  Chess, of course, offers an exercise in competitive thinking, but it only really uses certain analytical and predictive parts of the brain.  Many of the Eurogames are taxing different parts of the brain, more of a &#8220;situational risk analysis&#8221; sort of thing.  Some of the Eurogames challenge you to do different kinds of lateral thinking.  Bluffing games are something else again.  Sure, there&#8217;s a social aspect to these games, and an escapist angle as well, but I think that &#8220;competitive thinking&#8221; is a good way to focus the discussion.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: KarasDjun</title>
		<link>http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2566</link>
		<dc:creator>KarasDjun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2566</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Competitive thinking, huh? I'll buy that. I usually play boardgames to while away the time with people who will not play more engaging games (i.e. role-playing games). Boardgames to me are the bridge between casual gamers and hobby-gamers. I enjoy playing word and puzzle games by myself and win-lose boardgmaes with my friends. We sometimes make up teams to play some games, especially when some of us aren't feeling up to the mental challenge of a real brainteaser game. They take less effort to play and set up than role-playing games and have a defined beginning and end. There is also usually a goal or winning point. Some people like to win (endorphine flow is very necessary for some), while others simply enjoy playing the game socially, regardless of the outcome. I'll admit that I used to get very competitive when playing with other ultra-competitive players, but I'm much more of a casual gamer.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;People who don't game try to impress others by memorizing trivial sports data, details of TV shows, or other useless pieces of information. It seems that the worth of a person is how much you can cram into your brain and retrieve at the right moment. Some boardgames might be considered an arena where such knowledge can come to the fore. Remember how popular Trivial Pursuit was? Others like the strategy elements. Some people I know go to great lengths to "perfect" a boardgame strategy. I wonder if these people also realize it's no fun playing with someone who only seeks to win by the fastest means possible? I prefer the random luck games, or better yet, the games that can win by killing off the other players (Heroquest, Cosmic Encounter, etc.). This way everyone is on even footing (I'm all about fair-play).&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Competitive thinking, huh? I&#8217;ll buy that. I usually play boardgames to while away the time with people who will not play more engaging games (i.e. role-playing games). Boardgames to me are the bridge between casual gamers and hobby-gamers. I enjoy playing word and puzzle games by myself and win-lose boardgmaes with my friends. We sometimes make up teams to play some games, especially when some of us aren&#8217;t feeling up to the mental challenge of a real brainteaser game. They take less effort to play and set up than role-playing games and have a defined beginning and end. There is also usually a goal or winning point. Some people like to win (endorphine flow is very necessary for some), while others simply enjoy playing the game socially, regardless of the outcome. I&#8217;ll admit that I used to get very competitive when playing with other ultra-competitive players, but I&#8217;m much more of a casual gamer.</p>

<p>People who don&#8217;t game try to impress others by memorizing trivial sports data, details of TV shows, or other useless pieces of information. It seems that the worth of a person is how much you can cram into your brain and retrieve at the right moment. Some boardgames might be considered an arena where such knowledge can come to the fore. Remember how popular Trivial Pursuit was? Others like the strategy elements. Some people I know go to great lengths to &#8220;perfect&#8221; a boardgame strategy. I wonder if these people also realize it&#8217;s no fun playing with someone who only seeks to win by the fastest means possible? I prefer the random luck games, or better yet, the games that can win by killing off the other players (Heroquest, Cosmic Encounter, etc.). This way everyone is on even footing (I&#8217;m all about fair-play).</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: ShadowOni</title>
		<link>http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2565</link>
		<dc:creator>ShadowOni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 17:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2565</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I enjoy board games sometimes for the competive strategy and thinking aspect of it but for me I just like the excuse of getting together with friends.  Sometimes I'll develop a real desire to play a game, maybe even a specific game, but often as much I enjoy the presence of my friends, whether it is watching hockey games, movies, playing games, going out to dinner, or just hanging out, though lately I guess my demeanor doesn't indicate as much.  Well to the new year and being better company...&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoy board games sometimes for the competive strategy and thinking aspect of it but for me I just like the excuse of getting together with friends.  Sometimes I&#8217;ll develop a real desire to play a game, maybe even a specific game, but often as much I enjoy the presence of my friends, whether it is watching hockey games, movies, playing games, going out to dinner, or just hanging out, though lately I guess my demeanor doesn&#8217;t indicate as much.  Well to the new year and being better company&#8230;</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: The Emperor</title>
		<link>http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2563</link>
		<dc:creator>The Emperor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 16:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://d21-gaming.com/blog/2007/01/08/the-love-of-minds/#comment-2563</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Very interesting article, and I think you have a interesting argument about competitive thinking as the core, though I would suggest there is at least one not-insignificant sub-core.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I think board-gaming is not usually pure competitive thinking.  There is often a small amount of randomness from concealed initial setup, cards, dice, more 2 player turn order, etc.  After-all, we gamers don't all play chess all the time!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Shooting off my comment, (surely less well thought-out than Smite's article), I would say that the complexities of the board game allow the player to enjoy the implementation of strategies or strategems.  For board games we know well, we know 'preffered standard opening moves' to help increase chances - the best risk-reward.  But what if a player knows this, and just franly is bored by the same approach, he can gamble on different openings.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In this aspect, I think board games combine the sub-core of SOLO THINKING as well as COMPETITIVE THINKING.  This is one reason I think most board gamers to have relatively good sportsmanship.  The play of the game enables the fece-saving rationalization of loss not just to the dominating intellects around the table, but also to the results of the luck and risk-reward choices the player made in the game.  And in no few board games (race type especially), the play of others has little influence on your outcome, so you can soak your brain in your own plans &#38; strategy juices for most of the game.  The competetion is the braggin' rights at the end score.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;So I think, in board-games you play against yourself as well as against your opponents. Like golf.  (Of course, some golfers are not good sports)&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting article, and I think you have a interesting argument about competitive thinking as the core, though I would suggest there is at least one not-insignificant sub-core.</p>

<p>I think board-gaming is not usually pure competitive thinking.  There is often a small amount of randomness from concealed initial setup, cards, dice, more 2 player turn order, etc.  After-all, we gamers don&#8217;t all play chess all the time!</p>

<p>Shooting off my comment, (surely less well thought-out than Smite&#8217;s article), I would say that the complexities of the board game allow the player to enjoy the implementation of strategies or strategems.  For board games we know well, we know &#8216;preffered standard opening moves&#8217; to help increase chances - the best risk-reward.  But what if a player knows this, and just franly is bored by the same approach, he can gamble on different openings.</p>

<p>In this aspect, I think board games combine the sub-core of SOLO THINKING as well as COMPETITIVE THINKING.  This is one reason I think most board gamers to have relatively good sportsmanship.  The play of the game enables the fece-saving rationalization of loss not just to the dominating intellects around the table, but also to the results of the luck and risk-reward choices the player made in the game.  And in no few board games (race type especially), the play of others has little influence on your outcome, so you can soak your brain in your own plans &amp; strategy juices for most of the game.  The competetion is the braggin&#8217; rights at the end score.</p>

<p>So I think, in board-games you play against yourself as well as against your opponents. Like golf.  (Of course, some golfers are not good sports)</p>]]></content:encoded>
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