Look! I just rolled a SUPER critical!
Posted on Tuesday, May 29th, 2007 at 8:33 pm. About DnD, MetalJim.

One Fine Day at the Enchanting Shop

[Has anything like this ever happened in one of your D&D games?  Consider this a little meditation about the rules of D&D, building on some of the discussions from last week.]

GM: Alright, while you are in town, does anyone have any shopping that they would like to do?

Player:  Yeah, actually, I want to spend some time at the enchanter’s shop.  I was hoping to turn in that Robe of Stars that the Githyanki Priest used to teleport in from the astral plane.  I looked it up in the DMG, and it turns out that thing has a re-sale of, like, 58,000gp.  If I trade in some of my other gems, I have enough money to do what I want…

GM: Who said that the enchanter was willing to pay full market price for the Robe of Stars?

Player: I thought you said after the last adventure that because the king was grateful to us for saving the city, that we could sell items here for the full DMG value…

GM: I didn’t realize you were going to turn in something quite so expensive.

Player: Well, you should have thought about that before you let us have such a valuable piece of treasure.

GM: I thought the warlock in your party would want to use it.

Player:  It’s okay.  I talked to him about and we agreed I could sell the robe.

Holy bowGM: Just what did you have in mind for this thing, anyway?

Player:  That would be a +1 holy composite longbow of speed with a +3 Strength bonus. 

GM: Only a +1 bonus?

Player:  Yeah, it turns out that most of the monsters these days have specific types of damage reduction, and don’t really care how big of a plus you have on the weapon itself.

GM: But you want it to add +3 to your strength?

Player: No, that’s just the amount of my strength bonus that I can use on each arrow.  That hardly costs anything.

GM: And it doesn’t cost anything extra to put both “holy” and “speed” on the bow?

Player:  It totals out to like, a +6 weapon.  A little over 72,000gp.  +2 for holy, and +3 for speed.

GM: Which gives you an extra attack every round?

Player:  Only with a full attack action.  I checked already.  It stacks with my rapid shot feat and with haste spells.  The bonus damage against evil critters should come into play pretty often, and the bow should be pretty sweet against demons and devils that need “good” aligned weapons to hit them.  I’m looking forward to having like, 6 arrows per round, with all my other bonuses thrown in.

GM: Remember that you only get the enhancement bonus for the weapon OR the ammunition, whichever is better.

Player:  Oh, I know.  Again, that’s why there’s only a +1 bonus on the bow.  The cleric likes to use his magic weapon spell to feed me some +3 arrows before a big battle.  I’ve been saving up some other things as well, including those +2 adamantine arrows and those +2 cold iron arrows.  I’ve still got some silver arrows on my character sheet as well.

GM: Just how many arrows do you normally carry, anyway?

ArrowheadsPlayer:  Only about a hundred and twenty.  I can manage the weight with my 16 STR just fine.

GM: But that is a lot of arrows – it’s pretty bulky.

Player:  Since when does the D&D rules system care about bulk?

GM: Right.  Have you been rolling checks to see whether the arrows are destroyed after you use them?

Player:  What was I supposed to roll for that one again?  I thought you were in charge of that.  Since you didn’t say otherwise, I thought I could recover my misses.

GM: I don’t know.  It’s in the rule book somewhere.

Player:  Well, after you look it up, we can talk about it.  In the future, if you want me to roll for it, I will.

GM: Ugh.  It’s funny how quickly you forget about the rules that make life even a little bit more difficult for you, but you are always right on top of the rules that make things easier for you.

Player:  Hey, you make the adventures tough enough as it is.  I’m just staying on top of the rules that have the most relevance to my character, and trying to play the game well.  By the way, there’s something else that I want to talk to you about.

GM:   Might as well let it out.

Player:  In a few thousand XP, when I get my next level, there’s a feat that I want to pick up from the Complete Archer book that just came out.  The level after that, I should qualify for the “Ultimate Sniper” prestige class that comes from that book.  There’s another d6 damage bonus that you get with that class, and after a couple of levels I can qualify for the “Really, really, rapid shot” feat.

GM:   Hang on, I haven’t said whether that book was legal in my campaign.

Player:  But you allowed Mike to roll up a Warlock.  That class is in one of the “Complete” books.  I thought we were using those.

GM:   Just because I allowed one class from one book doesn’t mean I allow them all.  Besides, Mike’s warlock character fit pretty nicely into the story line that I was developing.  The Robe of Stars was supposed to be for him to use.

Player:   Well, dude, now you’re just playing favourites.  My fighter/ranger fits into the game just fine, and I’m just trying to make my character into something cool and fun.  I should have asked if I could use the “Ultimate Sniper” prestige class before I told you about the bow that I wanted to buy.  Now, you’re just trying to Nerf my character.

GM: Dude, you’re maxxing out the rules to turn your character into the Machine Gun of Doom.  From now on, all of the battles are just going to be about the party holding off the monsters long enough for you to turn them into pin cushions.  How much damage do you do per shot now?

Player: Umm, d8 +3 for Strength, +2 for specialization, +1 for point blank, +3 for the arrow, +2d6 against evil creatures.  I might have a couple other feats that apply, and the cleric sometimes gives me a prayer or a bless on top.

GM: So, you can easily do 20 points of damage per arrow, and you can top 100 points a round easily enough.  Compare that to what the warlock does in a single round, and it’s never even going to be close.  If I let you get the prestige class, you’ll be adding in even more damage dice.  It’s abusive.

Player: Well, we don’t have to settle on the prestige class this week.  So, I have 73,000gp.  Do I get my bow?

GM: [sighs] It’ll take some time.  Maybe two weeks to enchant.

Player: We’ll wait.  I’m am totally not leaving town until this thing is ready.

GM: I hope you aren’t going to cry like a baby when polearm wielding demons start to make sunder attacks against that bow of yours.

Player:  Well, now you’re just being a dick.

[Just who IS being the bigger dick here?  Can the DM re-take control of this game?  Should he?]

 

11 responses to 'One Fine Day at the Enchanting Shop'.

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  1. d21 Gaming » Magic Item Supply and Demand - Posted on September 18th, 2007 at 10:40 pm.
  1. 1 Yehuda Berlinger
    Posted on May 30th, 2007 at 2:20 am. About 'One Fine Day at the Enchanting Shop'.

    Why I don’t play 3e DnD. The ultimate in rule-playing experience.

    Yehuda

  2. 2 Cascadian
    Posted on May 30th, 2007 at 2:25 am. About 'One Fine Day at the Enchanting Shop'.

    I’ve had this conversation almost to the word.

  3. 3 umberhulk
    Posted on May 30th, 2007 at 8:13 am. About 'One Fine Day at the Enchanting Shop'.

    I wish my players have at least read the players handbook, I’d be in heaven if someone knew the rules at least as much as I do.

    If someone was being a dick, they’d unlikely be in my campaign for long.

  4. 4 KarasDjun
    Posted on May 30th, 2007 at 12:42 pm. About 'One Fine Day at the Enchanting Shop'.

    I’m with umberhulk. If ANY of my players (or fellow players) read a fraction of what that player needed to know, I’d probably have more fun playing. What kills me is that they don’t WANT to read the rules, but refuse to use a simpler, rules-lite system like D&D Basic. Go figure….

  5. 5 Smite
    Posted on May 30th, 2007 at 3:49 pm. About 'One Fine Day at the Enchanting Shop'.

    Yeah, in our world, the fighter/ranger has to be lovingly convinced to take some ranks of Tumble. Sigh.

    You already know how I would deal with such things. Let him buy the bow, but it turns out to be a fake. Or cursed. Or he gets chronic arthritis. Or paranoia. Or both his arms fall off.

    Or his money turns out to be fake, unwittingly, getting the unwanted attention of the local bankers guild and their assassin friends.

    Or hey, where do you think the Robe of Stars goes when you sell it, anyway? It’s practically an artifact, it doesn’t melt into the woodwork. It finds its way into the hands of another badass NPC who uses it to dish out pain and suffering to the world. Eventually the party learns that they either need to keep power items, destroy them, or give them to good-aligned allies.

    Strength is all relative: whatever you’re strong in, means you’re comparatively weaker somewhere else. A powerful party gets the attention of smart bad NPCs, who systematically and diabolically set out to ruin the party. They do this by denying them their strengths and exploiting their weaknesses. The DM should accept the player’s choice to buy such a killer item as an implicit agreement – nay, request – to “raise the stakes” in the campaign world.

  6. 6 Hunter Rose
    Posted on May 30th, 2007 at 4:38 pm. About 'One Fine Day at the Enchanting Shop'.

    This is a clear example of trying to game the system(or meta-game if you prefer). Players should respect that this is not allowed. It’s all about the collaborative effort to create something fun for everyone while simultaneously (one hopes) not giving the DM a headache because you waste precious game time arguing something that can easily be tabled until the downtime between sessions.

    Stuff like this is why I prefer training up new players who don’t have a lot of experience (or books). I’m actually pretty stingy on magical items. Everything has (or had) a purpose in my games, making unused or unwanted magic hard to find. Nobody’s complained yet.

    (I’m also stingy on stat generation. You get a 25 point buy from me and no complaints. If it’s good enough for my showpiece monsters/villians, it’s good enough for you!)

    “Strength is all relative: whatever you’re strong in, means you’re comparatively weaker somewhere else. A powerful party gets the attention of smart bad NPCs, who systematically and diabolically set out to ruin the party. They do this by denying them their strengths and exploiting their weaknesses. The DM should accept the player’s choice to buy such a killer item as an implicit agreement – nay, request – to “raise the stakes” in the campaign world.”

    They don’t call you Smite for your good looks, do they? ;)

  7. 7 MetalJim
    Posted on May 30th, 2007 at 11:22 pm. About 'One Fine Day at the Enchanting Shop'.

    Good discussion, guys. Just to clarify a few things…
    The sale price for a Robe of Stars is pretty much correct if you look it up in the 3.5 DMG. Most of the facts and figures in my discussion are real, and assume something like a 10-12th level PC. The rule about recovering arrows comes in the Player’s Handbook, in the equipment section, where it turns out that all hits are considered destroyed arrows, and 50% of missed shots can be recovered.
    The “Complete Archer” book is a non-existent work of the imagination, for now.
    I have had versions of this discussion with my players, just not quite as severe as this. However, situations like this have taught me to be very careful with what magical swag I leave lying around in the dungeon. Sometimes “cute” items and artifacts have re-sale prices way higher than the GM expects, and one or two such items can definitely throw a game out of whack.

  8. 8 Indiana Joe
    Posted on May 31st, 2007 at 7:58 pm. About 'One Fine Day at the Enchanting Shop'.

    I’ve been through entire campaigns that were like this. It’s not pretty.

  9. 9 ShadowOni
    Posted on June 5th, 2007 at 6:21 pm. About 'One Fine Day at the Enchanting Shop'.

    If somebody wanted to do this I would respect their wishes and allow it , of course generally speaking I ask players to a campaign that I trust won’t be too abusive. But as a GM you have control over encounters and can control how effective that item can be. Everything has a counter one way or another. That bow has a range, you could start an encounter a very long range, with extreme weather conditions, maybe a high level mage chucking fireballs or some other spell with a very long range. Maybe somebody that is concealed. A creature that takes reduced damage from piercing type weapons, or has some sort of spell that reduces/nullifies damage from arrows, arrow deflection, etc. Maybe a creature or spell that uses a slowing ability.

    As for prestige classes, personally I generally say most prestige classes are allowable, unless they are setting specific in which case we’d have to adapt the class, and in any event if you have plans for a prestige class you should consult the DM first anyhow to run it by him.

    My players almost always consult me with advancement to make sure a feat/prestige class etc is okay to take. Most times I let them, and if in hindsight it ends up being something that is broken I put it upon myself then to conjure up things to reduce its brokeness.

  10. 10 A. Nonymous
    Posted on August 5th, 2008 at 4:29 pm. About 'One Fine Day at the Enchanting Shop'.

    Can you say, “Uber-strong meleer with the robe attacks the archer”? Or, “Gems are used in evil ritual”?

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