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Posted on Friday, April 11th, 2008 at 12:00 pm. About DnD, Random.

Finding the path to a new D&D

If you are a fan of the fantasy genre and D&D in particular but are think that 4th edition goes too far than I have the system for you. Paizo publishing (that’s right the folks who used to publish Dragon and Dungeon Magazines) has a new game that carries on the legacy of 3rd edition D&D. The Pathfinder system was designed under the old OGL to keep the spirit of 3.5 alive. It does contain certain revisions and changes but it is done it the spirit of tweaking 3.5 than as a fundamental redesign like 4E. They are currently in a year long Alpha Test Phase where they hope to work any kinks out. To that end they have made available from their website a free pdf of the Pathfinder Alpha rules. I’ve downloaded it and have to say I like a lot of their changes. So much so that I am considering converting my 3.5 campaign to Pathfinder to help test things out.

 

Pathfinder

 

Let’s take it chapter by chapter.

Races:

All the races are still here and they are mostly the same. They each have a little boost to them getting a secondary stat boost. Elves now get a +2 to Int as well as Dex. (Looks like more people disagree with me and Tolkien.) There are a few other minor changes to all races like Keen Senses (bonuses to certain perception checks) and Weapon Familiarity (race weapons treated as Martial.) Out side of that there is not much else different. There are stylistically very similar to the older versions of their races. A PC who takes his races favored class gets one additional hp/level.

 

Classes:

They’ve redefined the level structure, but then they’ve redefined the way xp is awarded as well so it is tough to tell at a glance what effect this will have. They do offer a fast, a medium, and a slow progression track.

One thing that stuck out to me, since it was a change I made in my campaign a while ago, is that Feats are now awarded at every odd level. I have not found this unbalancing in my game in any way, shape, or form.

They only included the big four classes in the Alpha pdf. I assume they will release the others as they get the system more hammered out. The classes now have a lot more going on. Clerics and Wizards get powers based on their Domains or Specialization. Fighters get Armor and Weapon bonuses when they don’t get feats and Rogues get talents when they don’t get Sneak Attack dice. So they are pretty much the same classes just with a lot more going on. Clerics now get some orisons that they can cast at will sort of and Wizards get cantrips in much the same way. Sneak Attack can be used against a wider range of foes.

They have a made a small change to the hit points and suggested a couple others to try. Rogues got promoted to d8s and wizards to d6s. They suggest a few first level alternatives as well ranging from a flat first level bonus to a racial bonus to double maximum first level hp.

 

Skills:

This one of the most radically changed aspects of the game. It looks closer to 4E skill system than 3.5. They did away with skill points and collapsed the number of skills. I haven’t seen the numbers on 4E so I don’t know how close it is but it does feel similar. Don’t take that as a criticism, because it looks like a good system. A lot of people are very attached to their skill points. In my experience the spreading around of skill points is only useful to those with way above average stats. Most characters will choose one or two thing to excel at and forget the rest.

This system gives a lot more skills out. Skills are now either trained or untrained. You start with a number of skills based on your class and Int and then acquire a new one on the even levels. This is huge compared to the old system. A 20th level human priest with average int would have 3 skills at max level in 3.5; In Pathfinder he would have 13.

 

Feats:

Some feats remain unchanged others are improved. They also included a few new ones. My favorite is Weapon Swap. It allows you to make all attacks on a 2 Weapon Full Round Attack with the same weapon. I just love fighting with 2 weapons and can rarely find 2 good ones.

Really not much interesting changed with feats. Unless it was in the small print and I missed it.

 

Combat:

Of course they overhauled the much maligned Grapple system but in addition they overhauled all combat maneuvers to make them much easier to adjudicate.

Characters now have Combat Maneuver Bonus that you use to pull off any of the old tricks like grapple, disarm, Sunder, trip, etc. It’s also no longer an opposed check so only the attacker needs to role anything.

They also added a new descriptor “broken.” If items take too much damage they become broken. This has various negative effects based what the item is. This allows picking on PCs items without destroying them, while also increasing the usefulness of Mending and Make Whole. If this also applies to things like Mordenkinen’s Disjunction then that could make the world a little more PC friendly.

They changed Turning Undead. When a priest turns undead he bursts positive energy. Living creatures gain hp, undead take damage, and undead have to save or flee. This is a great way for a low level party to get some healing. It still requires a cleric but at least he doesn’t have to waste all his spells on patching people up.

 

Magic & Spells:

This chapter is mostly descriptions of the various Specialization and Domain powers that Wizards & Clerics get. They include a 1st level ability that is usable at will with higher level powers that are usually spell effects usable 1/ day or 1+1 per 2 levels/ day.

I am a little disappointed at the lack of Orisons and Cantrips. I like the system they came up with for them; the Wiz/Clr memorizes his allotment of cantrips for the day and then can use those as spell like abilities for the rest of the day. Unfortunately the only ones they include is the stabilize orison that replaces cure minor and the Mending spell which I don’t think should be a 0 level spell. It seems to me that they have a cool idea with the whole broken items thing and then they go and make fixing items spammable.

The only other spell descriptions they have are the ones that were directly affected by their rule changes; mostly the ones that used the grapple rules.

 

The rest of the ‘book’ has advice on encounter design, their new XP system, and information on the playtesting process.

 

 

What I find really interesting is that many of the things addressed in the Pathfinder rules are the exact same things addressed by the designers of 4E. They both wanted more healing; Pathfinder gave the Cleric healing that doesn’t impact his sell selection where 4E gave some kind of healing to all classes. They both had a fix for the grapple rules. They both did away with skill points and condensed the skill list. They both addressed the issue of ‘dead levels.’ The Paizo crew really were looking to show that WotC could have addressed all these problems without scrapping a good system. They’ve called this system 3.75, but I think it could be called 4.0 and stand as an equal to 4E. I look forward to the next alpha release to see what they intend for druids. I have no problem recommending this product to anyone disappointed with the direction 4E is going.

4 responses to 'Finding the path to a new D&D'.

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  1. 1 MetalJim
    Posted on April 11th, 2008 at 12:10 pm. About 'Finding the path to a new D&D'.

    It is understandable that Paizo would want to develop an alternative system, especially given the fiasco that WotC is having in putting together a new licensing program for 3rd party publishers in 4th edition.

    That said, how far can you go in stealing ideas from 4th edition and welding them onto “3.75″ or whatever before you get into the territory of copyright infringement? Paizo has leeway under the old 3rd edition OGL (which can never expire - it’s in the legalese), but they can’t go stealing too much from 4th edition either.

    This system will appease some of the folks who are bitter/ mad at WotC in the short term. This may even cause a few people to NOT buy 4th edition. However, given the lengthy “test” period, it is unlikely that these books will ever make a big splash in the marketplace by the time they are published for real.

    Despite a few good ideas, let’s check back in 3 years time and see if Paizo is a) still in business, and if so, b) publishing Pathfinder sourcebooks, or c) shifting over to 4th ed D&D modules.

  2. 2 Random
    Posted on April 11th, 2008 at 12:44 pm. About 'Finding the path to a new D&D'.

    The Paizo reps that I heard interviewed said that they are planning on producing both 4E material alongside the Pathfinder product line so I don’t think they are going anywhere. The Pathfinder line may fail, after all their target audience is the gamers who aren’t interested in change.

    I think it is unfair to say that they are stealing 4E ideas. The only thing that reminded me of 4E was the skill system and I don’t know the specifics of the 4E system so I can’t really say how close they are. Of course, MetalJim, you are more familiar with 4E than I am. Can you point out other areas where there is overlap mechanically?

  3. 3 MetalJim
    Posted on April 11th, 2008 at 2:50 pm. About 'Finding the path to a new D&D'.

    Random - stacking up the first level HP is not direct stealing, but close to 4E. Giving a feat at every odd level is 4E (but also from the newer Star Wars d20 rules). The skill compression is possibly the closest thing to 4E (again, Star Wars may be the real inspiration). I haven’t seen the 4th ed skill list, and I can’t compare them to Pathfinder, so I don’t know how close they are.

    Notice I did not directly accuse Pathfinder of stealing from 4th edition. To be precise, I was thinking out loud about WHERE the boundary would exist. WotC wants to keep 4th edition as a seperate and independent system. It would suck if 3rd party groups tried to fudge/ extend the old OGL to create various clones and near copies of 4th edition, in my opinion.

  4. 4 KarasDjun
    Posted on April 11th, 2008 at 2:54 pm. About 'Finding the path to a new D&D'.

    Pathfinder interested me from the beginning, but the price is the limiting factor for me. I wanted to get subscribed but couldn’t see doing that at the time. Is Erik Mona still on the editorial staff? He was the only reason I kept up with Dungeon magazine at the end. His view of D&D is very similar to my own (and he was a die-hard Greyhawk fan as well).

    I’ve also considered changing bits and pieces of 3.5 but found that the system is so intertwined that you have to consider a lot of ramifications on both the DM and player side before making lasting changes. What few house rules we did adopt I reverted back to by-the-book rules when I started running Forgotten Realms. Using the system as written has the advantage that I don’t have to continue reminding players of outright changes, minor alterations, etc. The skills for Pathfinder sound similar to something I was contemplating myself, basing them more on the Mentzer-era Gazetteer skill system with regards to number of skills and ability with each (1 rank/level). Of course, that causes problems at higher levels and Epic rules (which make no sense as they are anyway).

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